Beulah, peel me the English language!

[shewhomust]

The tomatoes which went into last night's sauce didn't want to relinquish their peel. Sometimes after the boiling water treatment it sloughs off whole, like a glove, and sometimes you'd have to pare it off with a knife: last night was one of the latter times, and life's too short. So when durham_rambler fished something red out of the sauce and asked "What's this? Is it bacon?" (for he is ever the optimist), it didn't take me long to identify it as tomato skin.

But this morning I was thinking: tomato skin, or tomato peel? I said 'skin' automatically, and I stick to it. But I'd talk, as I just have, about peeling tomatoes, not skinning them. Likewise grapes: I'd peel a grape by removing the skin (and I'd certainly talk about the skins when I talk about wine making). What about peppers? If I put them under the grill until the skin blisters, am I peeling them, or skinning them? (I think, in fact, I'm removing their skin).

Oranges, on the other hand, have peel or rind - but I don't think they have skin. Well, between the segments, possibly, which suggests that the defining factor is thickness. Apples have peel, but neither rind nor skin; peaches and apricots have skin - is that because it's furry?

Is this a peculiarity of the language, or is it just me? And what do you call the shell of a pomegranate?

Comments

[veronica-milvus.livejournal.com]

orange peel, apple peel, tomato skin, banana skin, lemon rind?

It is the reason that although to reach a basic level in English is easy, to speak it fluently requires a lifetime.

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

Banana skin but also banana peel? The rind and juice of a lemon, but candied lemon peel?

Oh, yes, it's an amazing language!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Skin for tomatoes and peppers, definitely. And peel for potatoes. In my head it feels, though, as if the outer layer is peel when I peel it, and skin the rest of the time.
As to pomegranates... I think I think rind.

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

If you peel a potato, you are left with potato peelings; but you can also bake or boil potatoes in their skins - and the French for baked potatoes is 'en obe des champs', which is delightful, but maybe a language too far!

I think I agree with your distinction to the extent that I would use peel as a verb more widely than as a noun: that is, I don't skin tomatoes, although what I remove is skin. Is it skin when it's on, but peel when it's been removed, perhaps?

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

I think it may be, yes.

[cellio]

My first thought was that skins are usually edible and peels are usually not (e.g. orange, banana), but apples have peels so that can't be it. Hmm.

(I know about candied orange peel, but you would never eat the peel right off the fruit, which is what I meant.)

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

Edible / inedible is so subjective (I once saw someone peel an apricot - with a knife and fork - before eating it); but I wonder whether skin is thinner and closer to the flesh than peel? Which are factors in how likely you are to eat it.

Ah, and you got in there with the candied peel just before I did.

[helenraven.livejournal.com]

I think "rind" for pomegranates. And I definitely skin my tomatoes and peppers. Regarding potatoes: when it's still on, it's skin, but once it's off, it's peel. Whereas for tomatoes I think it's skin in both situations, and for oranges it's peel in both situations. Y'know, I think it's a continuum, with oranges at one extreme and tomatoes at the other, and apples and potatoes in the middle. The variables are thickness, edibility, and techniques used in removal.

What take does French have on all this?

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

You posted this just as I was replying to la_marquise_de_ on very similar lines - and declining to be drawn into French, on the grounds that English is complicsted enough. They certainly have different words for skin (you can use 'peau' of vegetable matter, and Lexis says that it is synonymous with 'pelure' - peel - and 'écorce' - rind - though the English terms are broadly synonymous, too).

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Fascinating questions! I don't have anything useful to add, except another: why are skin, peel and shell all verbs that describe (respectively) the removal of the skin, peel or shell; but rind is only a noun?

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

Another good question. You can zest and pith an orange, but you cannot, by removing zest and pith at one time, rind it.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Then of course there's the question of what Americans would call such things. But we all know that Americans fail at speaking English. ;-/

(I had to read the bacon part of this post to sunspiral, who wondered why I chuckled out loud whilst reading LJ. I so love how you write.)

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking of you as I watch how this post has been gathering comments - it's a real 'got toast!' post, isn't it?

But don't be shy, tell us what Americans would call these things! Actually, cellio is American, and her milage doesn't vary all that much from mine - but what do *you* say?

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Personally, I think that a thin covering (tomato, grape, potato) would be a skin, whereas a thicker covering (orange, banana and yes, mango) would be a peel. Rinds are reserved only for watermelons and hard cheeses. Though I can't claim consistency; I would 'peel' an apple but it would have a 'skin'.

Poms would have peels, since you asked. ;-)

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

Cheese! Why did I not think of cheese?

On the theme of bacon

[anef.livejournal.com]

I was taken aback recently when preparing a pork joint for pot-roasting to be told to take the rind off. I wasn't sure whether the recipe meant the skin or the layer of fat underneath as well. Fortunately there was a picture showing the fat in place.

Re: On the theme of bacon

[shewhomust.livejournal.com]

That closes the circle very neatly.

The rind of a pork joint is presumably as much as you need to make crackling: but we'd have to consult desperance as to how much that might be!